Recently, I had the privilege of interviewing prolific animator, David Tuber, who has worked on various successful projects such as The LEGO Movie, Bojack Horseman, Robot Chicken, and directed the finale of adult swim's Moral Orel. Together, we talked about the plight of animators, industry rejection, his career, and what it was like to work on some of the best received animation in recent years.
Rua: "Okay, just to start off, can you introduce yourself?"
Tuber: "Sure, my name is David Tuber and I work in animation and film."
Rua: "Great. Now, for as long as I can remember there has been a debate about the necessity of film school, people often point to Tarantino as an example. So with how varied the success rate is, how necessary do you believe film school is for a successful career in the industry?"
Tuber: "Well, it depends entirely on the individual. Tarantino's encyclopedic knowledge of film is endless and he knew that prior to writing anything, he just grew up absorbing the stuff. And some other filmmakers do that too, but in my opinion the best thing about college or any type of education is that you benefit from the collaborations and you learn when you're around people who don't see eye-to-eye with you. It's that echo chamber discussion that we have a lot right now in politics, it's not good to isolate yourself to just what you know and the people you like. It's important to bounce ideas off other-minded people, and that's something you get at a university. You can also get some real hands-on education from a good faculty and people who are willing to help out. I'm still good friends with some of my faculty from college. So, y'know it can create a lifelong relationship, you can even get some work out of it. In my case, I was first-hand given the name of someone as a networking thing that got my foot in the door at ShadowMachine, which then led to Robot Chicken and Moral Orel and all this other stuff. So if I hadn't gone to college that never would have happened. Possibly I could've taught myself but, I'm very grateful that I went to college and did it that way. What you don't need to do is go to a major school that's expensive for prerequisites, that is a genuine waste of money. So, do those at the community college and knock out those unnecessary classes to get to the good stuff.
Rua: "So, I want to talk about some of your work. You were a storyboard artist on one of my favorite shows of all time, Bojack Horseman, correct?"
Tuber: "Yes, on season 1 and season 6."
Rua: "Okay, well, Bojack Horseman at its core is a very strange show. What do you contribute its gargantuan success to despite being such an unorthodox show?"
Tuber: "The genesis of it is luck on top of more luck on top of just incredible talent. If you know the story of how it came to be, Raphael Bob-Waksberg presented it to Michael Eisner at The Tornante Company, and it was just this kind of stab in the dark situation. The whole thing boils down to how good Raphael and his writing team are, the writing in that show is - one of the few scripts I've read and just thought: 'I don't want to touch this, this is perfect.' That almost never happens. Not to put down the other stuff I've worked on but usually there's some space for me to sneak in either jokes or nuances, the first season of Bojack was just something I didn't want to mess with. So, that's what it really comes down to, as far as the fruition of its production, if you talk to Raphael he'll say 'it's just crazy that we got this far, we didn't think anybody would go for it,' and then Netflix didn't sweep it under the rug they really promoted it and it ran six seasons. So it went pretty far, as far as one could. I think a big factor was luck but the writing was just solid."
Rua: "I discovered that show at the perfect time in my life. I was sixteen, I had just been discharged from the hospital for suicidal depression and I remember turning it on, looking for a laugh and the next thing you know I'm having an existential crisis. To this day I think it's the most accurate portrayal of depression I've ever seen. I just think it's such an incredible show, thank you so much for helping bring it to life."
Tuber: "I'll be honest, I had very little to do with...what it is. I just look at the writers and how they took it all the way. But you're right, the portrayals, there's so many, like asexuality, toxic behavior, and so many other situations and traits that haven't really been shown accurately. It's incredible."
Rua: "Do you have a favorite project that you've worked on?"
Tuber: "It's hard to pick just one. The ones that stand out the most are The LEGO Movie, Bojack, I think Moral Orel...might be the king. And the reason I'm hesitant is because it was one of the first things I worked on in my career. And I thought: 'well, this is just me getting excited about being in the industry.' It's like when you're house hunting and people fall in love with the first house they see, like, don't fall in love with the first project you work on! But, Moral Orel spoke to me the way you say Bojack speaks to you. I've never watched a show that spoke directly to my personality as much as Moral Orel, and it was just a match made in heaven. I tell everyone I could've worked on that show for ten seasons, easily."
Rua: "I wrote an article about that show not too long ago, and I remember it taking me such a long time to write because I desperately wanted to do it justice. And I came to the conclusion that it was ultimately destroyed by what made it so special - the third season."
Tuber: "Yeah, yeah the darkness."
Rua: "I'm someone who grew up the granddaughter of a former Catholic priest, and was a full-blown atheist by 11. And, I don't know - it's amazing how these mostly comedic shows can have such a strong, emotional impact on people. Everyone I know who's seen the show holds it so close to their heart regardless of their background, and I think that's a beautiful thing."
Tuber: "Those are the best kinds of shows in my opinion."
Rua: "I agree. Do you find the show's abrupt tonal transition from season 2 to season 3 a bit...jarring?"
Tuber: "No, working on it kind of felt like a smooth transition, that came a lot from knowing, Dino, the creator. This is gonna sound like an insult but it's not - being around the crew...there was a layer of darkness already. It didn't feel too jarring but...well now you got me thinking... I take it back, 'Nature Part 1' and 'Part 2' hit the hardest, from then on it was smooth a smooth transition but up until then it was kind of a fun, playtime kind of show and then 'Nature' just hit me in the face like a wooden bat. 'Numb' was the follow-up, the first episode of season 3, and I was like 'woah, we're going there,' and then 'Alone' was episode 3 and, I just kept thinking 'wow, we're really doing this,' but after 'Nature' I just thought: 'why not?' Like, let's keep pushing these boundaries, it didn't feel as jarring. But 'Nature' was definitely the most shocking for a number of reasons, not just the writing. Like, there's no score, just sound effects, and it feels like a special."
Rua: "I don't think a day goes by where I don't think of that episode at least once. It's so brilliantly written and it completely changes the tone of the series in a way that I assume was...incredibly risky and not easy to pitch?"
Tuber: "Mhm, yeah. We got a lot of notes, and a lot of the notes were good, but the biggest pushback was 'hey, maybe don't be so hard on Orel, let's make sure he's having fun.' And Dino wanted to do what inevitably Breaking Bad did which was take it to the Heisenberg level. Look at season 1, it's kind of quirky and then it becomes all serious, that's what Moral Orel was doing ahead of its time. I don't think the network wanted that but...I love where it went. And if you know Dino, that's his true writing, he's a very raw, honest, dark individual who knows how to write stuff like that. So I feel like when you sign on with him as the creator, you should've known that was coming. There's other creators who do that too like Dan Harmon with Rick and Morty and I'm sure he gets some pushback too. But yeah, there's a lot of good, dark writers who just want to go to that place and they get a little pushback so that it doesn't become too dark."
Rua: "What's also interesting is that this show ended nearly sixteen years ago, and a lot of the fans who you see obsessing about it online certainly aren't old enough to remember it. Why do you think the show has made such a comeback in recent years?"
Tuber: "...There's an honesty in Moral Orel, especially in the later season that is rare. And I think there is more of a desire for that kind of show, there's a lot of anti-hero shows out right now, like I mentioned: Breaking Bad. So...it dates all the way back to All In The Family with Archie Bunker like it's about how far we can push the boundaries. Bojack goes almost further than Clay Puppington, and it makes you wonder 'how long can we hold onto these characters?' That I think resonates more with audiences because we roped in audiences early with a cute and cuddly look and there's almost nothing like Moral Orel, not even close, it's its own thing, especially with the aesthetic. And it is so dark compared to how to starts that and it does it in three seasons. Also, not many shows tackle religion and I think a lot of people want to have that conversation but they don't know where to go and this show is very cathartic for them. For me, as well, I turned atheist the same age as you and everybody is soul-searching all the time, even if you're confidently one-labeled I think you're still listening. So that show kind of reaches out and says: 'you can be a Buddhist, you can consider this, and here's the hypocrisy behind this thing.' I think it's just really helpful for people who are soul-searching. And who does more soul-searching than adolescents? So, it makes sense that it's resonating more and more, I hope it keeps going, it's awesome."
Rua: "Yeah, and the finale, to your credit I think is absolutely perfect. Are there unique challenges to directing a finale?"
Tuber: "Well yeah, especially with stop-motion. When it comes to live-action you're shooting one scene at a time, in stop-motion you have multiple stages, at ShadowMachine we had sixteen stages, which means sixteen different scenes are going on at once. So you're juggling multiple scenes in your head and mistakes are made, some of which I will never unsee and it pisses me off that they made it to final cut. But yeah, that was my first time directing and it was terrifying because it was a finale, you're thinking about the last time you see these characters so you're trying to give them the most beautiful sendoff. I was trying to make this episode more of a 'take a bow' kind of thing. I was devastated every time we had to wrap on certain characters and I would look at these puppets like, this is the last time we're ever gonna see these characters, and I put them away and it was heartbreaking. So, I was so not ready to be done with these characters and these stories, it was really tough, emotionally. And then also the pressure of a studio expecting it to be the most perfect beautiful episode because it's the last one and for my first time directing that was incredibly stressful and I made a ton of mistakes, I learned and I got better but it was very daunting to be perfect when I was anything but."
Rua: "Are there any productions you wish you'd been a part of?"
Tuber: "Yeah, I almost worked on Hazbin Hotel...god there's so many. Here's one, I threw myself out there as a director when Animaniacs came back, and I really wanted to get on that because that was something I grew up with and felt very connected with, it didn't work out. Gravity Falls is another one, I almost worked on the last season and I really wanted that one and didn't quite get it. It happens all the time y'know, sunrise, sunset."
Rua: "In that same sort of realm, do you have any advice for aspiring animators?"
Tuber: "Be prepared for lots of rejection. This is not an industry for the thin-skinned, you have to be tough. And by tough I don't just mean emotionally prepared for rejection, but think about how it'll affect you financially. You have to consider how you're gonna fall back and roll with those punches. You may not find work right away doing the exact position you want so consider other positions or even survival jobs. It's not a smooth journey it's a rocky one. And it comes and it goes, sometimes you're on fire like when I did The LEGO Movie, I could walk into any agency pretty easy because I was 'hot' at the time because I was apart of that film's success. And now...not so much, cut to a few years later and people weren't so responsive. So, you kind of have to take it in while you've got it and know that it's gonna run out, and then jump back up. There's a lot of uncertainty. Sorry, it's a long answer but I just have so many stories of rejection and struggle and it's like...it's not a smooth ride but it is a fun one. Like, if you get paid to make art or draw or do whatever in this industry it's so rewarding.
Rua: "I do this thing called rejection practice where I apply for jobs and internships I know I have no chance of getting just so I can receive rejection letters back and get used to the feeling."
Tuber: "That's AMAZING! That is such a testament to who you are. I mentor students and I'm gonna tell them to do that from now on!"
Rua: "Oh wow, thank you!"
Tuber: "That is so brilliant, you need to taste rejection because so many people crumble. I hear people say 'oh it's my tenth rejection, I'm never gonna make it,' and I'm like 'just ten?' You just have to be used to rejection."
Rua: "Absolutely, it's the kind of thing you need to expect 99 times out of 100. Now, the last thing I like to ask all my guests is 'what's your favorite swear word?' Do you have a favorite swear word?'
Tuber: "I'm looking at it right now on a sign I got in Ireland: 'feckin' eejit!'
Rua: "My mom said that all the time growing up!"
Tuber: "I'm also a fan of 'fuckwit,' I think that one just sort of rolls off the tongue.' 'Twat' is great. I love when they hit the consonants. Like...'cunt' is great."
Rua: "I think that one's my favorite actually. It's such a punchy word it leaves such an impact, at least here in the states."
Tuber: "'fuckwit' just feels good it's like strong. I've got too many."
Rua: "Well, thank you so much for your time, thanks for joining me here! This was definitely one of my favorite interviews I've done."
Tuber: "Take care!"
Thanks again to Mr. David Tuber for his time and willingness to appear on our publication. All of his work can be found here. Thanks so much for stopping by Cinemasters.net and remember to never stop watching!
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